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	<title>Comments on: Were the M-19 peace talks an â€œerrorâ€?</title>
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	<link>http://www.cipcol.org/?p=5</link>
	<description>Peace, security, human rights and the U.S. role in Latin America, from the Center for International Policy.</description>
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		<title>By: jcg</title>
		<link>http://www.cipcol.org/?p=5&#038;cpage=1#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>jcg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Oct 2004 03:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The truth commission seems like an interesting alternative, but as you&#039;ve mentioned it&#039;s far from an easy solution...it would need the support or at least tolerance of almost every one potentially involved, in Colombia and outside the country, for it to have lasting results. 

In the end, it&#039;s clear that making a peace negotiation in Colombia these days is going to be much harder than it would have been in say, back in the 80&#039;s (when drugs came into the picture with a bang, literally)...a pity. 

The paramilitary talks do face those and other serious obstacles, which is why I&#039;m beginning to consider that there&#039;s a likely possibility they will eventually either crash and burn due to an intolerable act (on the part of either side or even the guerrillas), or simply dissolve into a meaningless mess that won&#039;t survive Uribe&#039;s term(s).

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The truth commission seems like an interesting alternative, but as you&#8217;ve mentioned it&#8217;s far from an easy solution&#8230;it would need the support or at least tolerance of almost every one potentially involved, in Colombia and outside the country, for it to have lasting results. </p>
<p>In the end, it&#8217;s clear that making a peace negotiation in Colombia these days is going to be much harder than it would have been in say, back in the 80&#8217;s (when drugs came into the picture with a bang, literally)&#8230;a pity. </p>
<p>The paramilitary talks do face those and other serious obstacles, which is why I&#8217;m beginning to consider that there&#8217;s a likely possibility they will eventually either crash and burn due to an intolerable act (on the part of either side or even the guerrillas), or simply dissolve into a meaningless mess that won&#8217;t survive Uribe&#8217;s term(s).</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Isacson</title>
		<link>http://www.cipcol.org/?p=5&#038;cpage=1#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Isacson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Oct 2004 05:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cipcol.org/?p=5#comment-3</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the thoughtful comment. You caught me using the too-vague term â€œaccountableâ€ to describe what should be done about paramilitary human rights abusers. To be honest, thatâ€™s because weâ€™re still wrestling with this. The difficulty is that two of the goals that CIP exists to promote â€“ human rights and peaceful conflict resolution â€“ are not quite in harmony here.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You are absolutely right that itâ€™s impossible to imagine Salvatore Mancuso or Don Berna willingly handing in their weapons at the end of a negotiation, then going straight to jail. Perhaps this would be imaginable if the Colombian state, through military might, had weakened the AUC to the point where their leaders had no choice but to face justice. But itâ€™s impossible to argue that the Colombian government has ever come close to that â€“ thereâ€™s never been more than the occasional skirmish with AUC paramilitaries, and that after years of well-documented military-paramilitary collaboration.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What does accountability entail, then, if not jail? Several people scolded me in late 2002 after, in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://ciponline.org/colombia/02121001.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;memo&lt;/a&gt; about whether the paramilitary talks deserve U.S. support, I acknowledged the possibility that â€œsome form of immunity from prosecution for most or all of the paramilitaries could be a condition of their disarmament.â€&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Friends in the human rights community responded with two very good points. First, Colombia has been through many â€œforgive and forgetâ€ peace agreements since the end of &lt;i&gt;La Violencia&lt;/i&gt;, and the cycle of violence has just spiraled as people are forced to live alongside their loved onesâ€™ and leadersâ€™ amnestied killers. The argument holds that you cannot truly have peaceful conflict resolution without justice for human rights crimes. Second, many argue that the worldwide cause of human rights has progressed such that the amnesties that were part of past peace processes would represent a step backward. (People on the right also argue that because â€œthe world changed after 9/11,â€ terrorist acts that may have been amnestied in the past are off the table now.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;These views are fully represented in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2812:&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Senateâ€™s version of the 2005 foreign aid bill&lt;/a&gt;, currently in conference committee awaiting final passage, which would prohibit any U.S. support for demobilizations if â€œthe Colombian legal framework governing the demobilization of such groupsâ€ does not provide for â€œprosecution and punishment, in proportion to the crimes committed, of those responsible for gross violations of human rights and drug trafficking.â€ Meanwhile, as Steve Dudleyâ€™s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/9888008.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;good piece&lt;/a&gt; in Monday&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Miami Herald&lt;/i&gt; notes â€“ and the M-19 controversy highlights â€“ Colombians themselves have yet to agree on a workable definition of what is forgivable.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Still, I can think of no real example of a non-state armed groupâ€™s leaders agreeing to stand trial and jail unless they were facing defeat. The Uribe government has tried to split the difference with the weaker punishments envisioned in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.altocomisionadoparalapaz.gov.co/documentos/pliego_modifi.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;modified â€œalternative penaltiesâ€ bill&lt;/a&gt; currently stuck in Colombia&#039;s Congress. These, however, have pleased almost nobody: the paramilitaries have rejected them as too much and the human rights community insists they are not enough.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In many other past cases, in which the non-state group still has some ability to keep fighting, peace processes have included an even weaker mechanism for â€œaccountabilityâ€: the â€œtruth and reconciliation commission.â€ This is usually a committee of dignitaries judged by both sides to be impartial and disinterested, often with the participation or imprimatur of the international community (such as the UN). The commission doesnâ€™t have the power to hand out punishments, but the more effective ones have been able to name names â€“ to assign responsibility to individuals for ordering some of the worst atrocities of the conflict.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Some observers, such as former Colombian Peace Commissioner &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.revistanumero.com/36para.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Daniel GarcÃ­a-PeÃ±a&lt;/a&gt;, have explored the possibility of a truth commission for Colombia&#039;s talks with the paramilitaries. This â€“ combined with a seizure and redistribution of all stolen paramilitary assets â€“ may offer a way out. It would be a waste of everyoneâ€™s time, though, if such a commission were to name only the trigger-pullers, leaving the &quot;intellectual authors&quot; of crimes anonymous. A worthwhile commission would also take care to name military officers who facilitated or willfully ignored atrocities, and wealthy Colombians who willingly paid for the killers&#039; guns and salaries.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Even if that happens, a truth commission still wouldn&#039;t please many people, because nobody would serve hard jail time. But by naming names and attaching eternal shame to the perpetrators, it holds some hope of halting the cycle of violence while still allowing a demobilization to proceed.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Is this CIPâ€™s final position on the matter? No. But hopefully the discussion shows the direction of our thinking as we consider what kind of â€œaccountabilityâ€ is sufficient to merit U.S. support for the paramilitary talks. (Or, for that matter, U.S. support for any other peace initiative that progresses to the point where amnesty is a topic.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And this, of course, is all without mentioning any of the other thorny obstacles the paramilitary talks face: extradition, cease-fire violations, possible â€œrecyclingâ€ of former paramilitaries as state auxiliaries, and the likelihood that guerrillas will benefit from the paras&#039; absence, to name only a fewâ€¦&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughtful comment. You caught me using the too-vague term â€œaccountableâ€ to describe what should be done about paramilitary human rights abusers. To be honest, thatâ€™s because weâ€™re still wrestling with this. The difficulty is that two of the goals that CIP exists to promote â€“ human rights and peaceful conflict resolution â€“ are not quite in harmony here.</p>
<p>You are absolutely right that itâ€™s impossible to imagine Salvatore Mancuso or Don Berna willingly handing in their weapons at the end of a negotiation, then going straight to jail. Perhaps this would be imaginable if the Colombian state, through military might, had weakened the AUC to the point where their leaders had no choice but to face justice. But itâ€™s impossible to argue that the Colombian government has ever come close to that â€“ thereâ€™s never been more than the occasional skirmish with AUC paramilitaries, and that after years of well-documented military-paramilitary collaboration.</p>
<p>What does accountability entail, then, if not jail? Several people scolded me in late 2002 after, in a <a href="http://ciponline.org/colombia/02121001.htm" rel="nofollow">memo</a> about whether the paramilitary talks deserve U.S. support, I acknowledged the possibility that â€œsome form of immunity from prosecution for most or all of the paramilitaries could be a condition of their disarmament.â€</p>
<p>Friends in the human rights community responded with two very good points. First, Colombia has been through many â€œforgive and forgetâ€ peace agreements since the end of <i>La Violencia</i>, and the cycle of violence has just spiraled as people are forced to live alongside their loved onesâ€™ and leadersâ€™ amnestied killers. The argument holds that you cannot truly have peaceful conflict resolution without justice for human rights crimes. Second, many argue that the worldwide cause of human rights has progressed such that the amnesties that were part of past peace processes would represent a step backward. (People on the right also argue that because â€œthe world changed after 9/11,â€ terrorist acts that may have been amnestied in the past are off the table now.)</p>
<p>These views are fully represented in the <a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2812:" rel="nofollow">Senateâ€™s version of the 2005 foreign aid bill</a>, currently in conference committee awaiting final passage, which would prohibit any U.S. support for demobilizations if â€œthe Colombian legal framework governing the demobilization of such groupsâ€ does not provide for â€œprosecution and punishment, in proportion to the crimes committed, of those responsible for gross violations of human rights and drug trafficking.â€ Meanwhile, as Steve Dudleyâ€™s <a href="http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/9888008.htm" rel="nofollow">good piece</a> in Monday&#8217;s <i>Miami Herald</i> notes â€“ and the M-19 controversy highlights â€“ Colombians themselves have yet to agree on a workable definition of what is forgivable.</p>
<p>Still, I can think of no real example of a non-state armed groupâ€™s leaders agreeing to stand trial and jail unless they were facing defeat. The Uribe government has tried to split the difference with the weaker punishments envisioned in the <a href="http://www.altocomisionadoparalapaz.gov.co/documentos/pliego_modifi.htm" rel="nofollow">modified â€œalternative penaltiesâ€ bill</a> currently stuck in Colombia&#8217;s Congress. These, however, have pleased almost nobody: the paramilitaries have rejected them as too much and the human rights community insists they are not enough.</p>
<p>In many other past cases, in which the non-state group still has some ability to keep fighting, peace processes have included an even weaker mechanism for â€œaccountabilityâ€: the â€œtruth and reconciliation commission.â€ This is usually a committee of dignitaries judged by both sides to be impartial and disinterested, often with the participation or imprimatur of the international community (such as the UN). The commission doesnâ€™t have the power to hand out punishments, but the more effective ones have been able to name names â€“ to assign responsibility to individuals for ordering some of the worst atrocities of the conflict.</p>
<p>Some observers, such as former Colombian Peace Commissioner <a href="http://www.revistanumero.com/36para.htm" rel="nofollow">Daniel GarcÃ­a-PeÃ±a</a>, have explored the possibility of a truth commission for Colombia&#8217;s talks with the paramilitaries. This â€“ combined with a seizure and redistribution of all stolen paramilitary assets â€“ may offer a way out. It would be a waste of everyoneâ€™s time, though, if such a commission were to name only the trigger-pullers, leaving the &#8220;intellectual authors&#8221; of crimes anonymous. A worthwhile commission would also take care to name military officers who facilitated or willfully ignored atrocities, and wealthy Colombians who willingly paid for the killers&#8217; guns and salaries.</p>
<p>Even if that happens, a truth commission still wouldn&#8217;t please many people, because nobody would serve hard jail time. But by naming names and attaching eternal shame to the perpetrators, it holds some hope of halting the cycle of violence while still allowing a demobilization to proceed.</p>
<p>Is this CIPâ€™s final position on the matter? No. But hopefully the discussion shows the direction of our thinking as we consider what kind of â€œaccountabilityâ€ is sufficient to merit U.S. support for the paramilitary talks. (Or, for that matter, U.S. support for any other peace initiative that progresses to the point where amnesty is a topic.)</p>
<p>And this, of course, is all without mentioning any of the other thorny obstacles the paramilitary talks face: extradition, cease-fire violations, possible â€œrecyclingâ€ of former paramilitaries as state auxiliaries, and the likelihood that guerrillas will benefit from the paras&#8217; absence, to name only a fewâ€¦</p>
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		<title>By: jcg</title>
		<link>http://www.cipcol.org/?p=5&#038;cpage=1#comment-2</link>
		<dc:creator>jcg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I totally disagree with the M-19 reference that Uribe made, as far as that specific case goes, but I do agree with some of the, apparently undermined a bit here, reasoning behind it. 

Well, holding the AUC fully accountable, humans rights-wise, would be a poor decision at this moment. Every life that a partial cease-fire saves makes it worthy. 

It&#039;s hard to choose between &quot;horrible&quot; and &quot;more horrible&quot;, but sometimes that has to be done, when you aren&#039;t strong enough to prevent those abuses yourself.  

Pastrana didn&#039;t even demand that the FARC make a similar partial cease-fire, but there were unilateral, temporary X-mas truces that saved an unknown number of lives, for a start.  

And actually, as I said, I read the message differently. The Colombian government has made clear, not just when (wrongly) bringing up the M-19 example but in further interviews and communiques, that full amnesties (or almost full) aren&#039;t going to work anymore. See the interview with Restrepo in EL TIEMPO, October 10, for example. 

Full punishment isn&#039;t going to be an attractive offer, neither for the FARC/ELN nor for the AUC, thus some sort of benefits do have to be offered, but nothing that amounts to a full amnesty. 

However, once any workable deal is made, I&#039;m sure that the paramilitaries and other criminals, both inside and outside the government, could well be brought to justice, if the international or Colombian opinion decides to do it. 

For example, the militaries of Argentina and Chile had full pardons or immunities, which were necessary when they were made, but are now crumbling down and they&#039;re getting what they deserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally disagree with the M-19 reference that Uribe made, as far as that specific case goes, but I do agree with some of the, apparently undermined a bit here, reasoning behind it. </p>
<p>Well, holding the AUC fully accountable, humans rights-wise, would be a poor decision at this moment. Every life that a partial cease-fire saves makes it worthy. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to choose between &#8220;horrible&#8221; and &#8220;more horrible&#8221;, but sometimes that has to be done, when you aren&#8217;t strong enough to prevent those abuses yourself.  </p>
<p>Pastrana didn&#8217;t even demand that the FARC make a similar partial cease-fire, but there were unilateral, temporary X-mas truces that saved an unknown number of lives, for a start.  </p>
<p>And actually, as I said, I read the message differently. The Colombian government has made clear, not just when (wrongly) bringing up the M-19 example but in further interviews and communiques, that full amnesties (or almost full) aren&#8217;t going to work anymore. See the interview with Restrepo in EL TIEMPO, October 10, for example. </p>
<p>Full punishment isn&#8217;t going to be an attractive offer, neither for the FARC/ELN nor for the AUC, thus some sort of benefits do have to be offered, but nothing that amounts to a full amnesty. </p>
<p>However, once any workable deal is made, I&#8217;m sure that the paramilitaries and other criminals, both inside and outside the government, could well be brought to justice, if the international or Colombian opinion decides to do it. </p>
<p>For example, the militaries of Argentina and Chile had full pardons or immunities, which were necessary when they were made, but are now crumbling down and they&#8217;re getting what they deserve.</p>
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